Forums > MobyGames > To all those obsessed with using "the player"
CalaisianMindthief (8171) on 6/20/2015 6:56 PM · Permalink · Report
To all those obsessed with using "the player" in descriptions: one thing you need to understand is that "you" is a much more neutral way of addressing the reader/player than "the player". When revising the descriptions, and you absolutely have to remove all instances of "you", there's much more skill required than simply replacing them with "the player". The sentence "The player must protect the player, otherwise the player will die." (this is just an exaggerated example) is not ok.
If you have to, use "him", "her", "their", "himself", "herself", "themselves" when referring to the player instead of a convoluted, roundabout way of saying it. In fact you can choose one and stick with it throughout the description because that's how it should be done. If you don't agree try to mix in more passive sentences.
Well, that's my rant about the issue.
chirinea (47573) on 6/20/2015 8:14 PM · Permalink · Report
It is not that I'm obsessed with using "the player", it's just that this is another one of those "unwritten rules" of MobyGames. Check this thread out.
Patrick Bregger (308706) on 6/20/2015 8:38 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
My subjective observation: "you" only works well when the user has an at least semi-professional writing skill or the description is very simple. For everyone else (which, let's face it, is the majority of the user base including most English native speakers) third-person at least gives the distant notion of professionalism. However, personally I believe we should not edit descriptions just because of this, but only when it is a clear improvement in style or content. Just replacing "you" with "the player" without thinking will make the text worse.
What I hate more is mixing. It is not important (or realistic) that the site as a whole has a consistent writing style, but each description should. I don't want to read two paragraphs with "you" and then a third with "the player". Personally I always try to respect the original work and only edit it to match my style when I add more than already exists or the description is obviously bad.
Harmony♡ (21848) on 6/20/2015 9:37 PM · Permalink · Report
In fact, it's standard practice in professional, informative writing in general. Take any sort of writing class, and one of the first things they'll tell you is that if it's nonfiction and not meant to be representative of any sort of personal experience or opinion, you should probably be using the third person.
vileyn0id_8088 (21036) on 6/20/2015 10:33 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start CalaisianMindthief wrote--][rant][/Q --end CalaisianMindthief wrote--] 100% agreed.
I tend to avoid using "the player", since it necessitates using more complex constructs while wrestling with genders and pronouns, and the result often looks cumbersome and doesn't 'flow' nearly as well as the simple "you". When it works, I do use it, but forcing it as a rule (written or unwritten) would be unreasonable.
I think I've seen some descriptions of mine that went through heavy-handed edits, with "the player" shoved when it didn't belong, ruining the style in the process. I just shook my head - if you're going to make the description worse, why bother?
One could adhere to every rule of technical/professional writing, and still end up with an unreadable mess of a description. As long as the information is factually correct, we need to allow for some flexibility in style - unless the goal is to make our entries a chore to read, like most technical/professional writing often is. Or most wikipedia articles, really.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/20/2015 11:57 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
At this day an age, I'd prefer no professional online database use terms not commonly found in any other database, encyclopedia, or scholarly article. When in doubt, use Encyclopedia Britannica as an example of how they would publish articles. Anything less would frankly sound a bit newbie-ish.
Keep in mind, this includes terms such as: you, but, like, quotation marks used for emphasis, not italicizing foreign words, using italics or quotation marks in parenthesis. Dang, I used to correct thesis's for a living. -_-
All of which are used if you're writing for a high school journal in California.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/21/2015 12:25 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--]Dang, I used to correct thesis's for a living. -_- [/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--] Theses.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/21/2015 1:19 AM · Permalink · Report
See, told you I'm stressed. :p
Karsa Orlong (151754) on 6/22/2015 1:18 PM · Permalink · Report
Using 'You' is completely unprofessional. All descriptions should be written in neutral form, using the third person. That's editors basics, although making correction mentioned in the first message is pointless...
FatherJack (61754) on 6/22/2015 3:02 PM · Permalink · Report
Well seeing as I'm not a professional in any form of writing and this isn't an actual official MobyGames rule then I apologise for my desriptions that upsets a few of you. A message would of been nice to say that we prefer 'the player' instead of 'you' then I would of been happy to oblige. Funny thing is, Karsa Orlong is the approver of an awful lot of my contributions but yet he has a problem with how I write my descriptions. PMSFL.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/22/2015 3:17 PM · Permalink · Report
It really shouldn't be much of a big deal when you're submitting a new game.
Some users such as myself prefer quality control after the submission is in. As long as the overall description doesn't sound like advertising blurb or too vague when submitting a new game, it's usually pretty much lenient.
So, no intention of scaring users away just because of descriptions.
Karsa Orlong (151754) on 6/22/2015 4:04 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
You've got me wrong FatherJack. Your descriptions are perfectly fine, always! MG is not a professional site, it's made by gamers for gamers, it's somewhere close to semi-pro at best. I'm just saying 'You' or 'the player' is basically the same - but the second one would be preferable if it really matters at any point. But it doesn't. It's MG not PC Gamer. So "You" or "the player" is 100% fine. Corrections in such matter ARE NOT as completely useless. That's all.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/22/2015 9:14 PM · Permalink · Report
Call me unprofessional then.
Daniel Saner (3515) on 6/28/2015 9:58 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
Better be safe and use both! Just in case there ever is any confusion on what your role is. Rugby League Team Manager 2015
In case it got removed or chnaged, this is how the game's official description started: "Rugby League Team Manager 2015 puts you, the player, in the heart of the action, of managing your own Rugby League club."
Indra was here (20738) on 6/28/2015 11:00 AM · edited · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Daniel Saner wrote--]In case it got removed or changed, this is how the game's official description started: "Rugby League Team Manager 2015 puts you, the player, in the heart of the action, of managing your own Rugby League club." [/Q --end Daniel Saner wrote--] Rugby League Team Manager 2015 puts the player in the heart of the action, managing a Rugby League club.
:p
It should also be noted that the purpose of advertising is to induce a subjective perspective to the buyer, hence in that perspective, it's better to use you instead of a neutral term, such as the player.
I guess, part of the problem is that many users have been influenced by advertisement styles for decades. Hence, believing such examples in ads as the proper norm.
Daniel Saner (3515) on 6/28/2015 7:18 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start chirinea wrote--]Don't mind me, just closing the bold tag. =) [/Q --end chirinea wrote--]
How embarrassing! Thank you.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/28/2015 1:43 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] I guess, part of the problem is that many users have been influenced by advertisement styles for decades. Hence, believing such examples in ads as the proper norm. [/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--] No, we are influenced by journalistic style.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/28/2015 2:02 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] [Q2 --start Indra is stressed wrote--] I guess, part of the problem is that many users have been influenced by advertisement styles for decades. Hence, believing such examples in ads as the proper norm. [/Q2 --end Indra is stressed wrote--] No, we are influenced by journalistic style. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--] Which is somewhere between advertising and academic writing. Journalistic styles aren't really known for their objectivity. That wouldn't sell papers very well.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/28/2015 3:02 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
Objectivity doesn't sit in the pronouns used. But it's common to confuse tediousness with objectivity.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/28/2015 4:38 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--]Objectivity doesn't sit in the pronouns used. But it's common to confuse tediousness with objectivity. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]Not just pronouns. It lies in every single word used. If said words aren't neutral in one form or another, then the author is attempting to convey a personal message. Much less any word that isn't used under official pretense.
Though even the standards of journalism, one wouldn't use 'you' as a pronoun for the reader in their articles, without sounding amateurish. In journalism and literature, more than often the reader is used. So you're arguing for even lower standards then.
A colloquialism, I believe it's called. Which is fine, if it were just a personal database a decade ago ago, started by three people. Not so good, when now it's a database with a repertoire that serious people officially quote in their books and articles.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/29/2015 1:49 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] Though even the standards of journalism, one wouldn't use 'you' as a pronoun for the reader in their articles, without sounding amateurish. In journalism and literature, more than often the reader is used. So you're arguing for even lower standards then. [/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--] Why would "the reader" be used when the reader has never played the game?
Let me just quote the last review I had open in my browser: http://amr.abime.net/review_16842
But then again, I'm just a journalist, so what do I know about standards or professionalism...
Pseudo_Intellectual (67532) on 6/29/2015 2:55 AM · Permalink · Report
As far as games writing is concerned, I could see a wedge bring driven early on in eg. D&D's insistence on distinction between "the player" and "the PC", and other role-playing conceits that either put the player in the shoes of a specific character (who is not actually them) or play up the idea that the player is playing THEMSELF ("you"), somehow sucked into the computer.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/29/2015 4:42 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--]As far as games writing is concerned, I could see a wedge bring driven early on in eg. D&D's insistence on distinction between "the player" and "the PC", and other role-playing conceits that either put the player in the shoes of a specific character (who is not actually them) or play up the idea that the player is playing THEMSELF ("you"), somehow sucked into the computer. [/Q --end Pseudo_Intellectual wrote--] I'm treading the waters on what is the best word to describe the PC. As I've noticed here, several variations are used: the computer, the CPU, the PC, the AI, the artificial intelligence (AI), the program, the game.
Confusing really.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/29/2015 4:39 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] [Q2 --start Indra is stressed wrote--] In journalism and literature, more than often the reader is used. [/Q2 --end Indra is stressed wrote--] [1] Why would "the reader" be used when the reader has never played the game?
[2] But then again, I'm just a journalist, so what do I know about standards or professionalism... [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--] [1] It refers to traditional journalism, where the main subject is the article, not a game. You do know that journalism did not come from game magazines? :p
[2] I don't doubt you're a journalist. Though the world of journalism is wide. From trash tabloids, to the New York Times. To a hobbyist magazine, to the science section. Each of which use different standards, depending how prestigious the company is based on the net of the target audience and/or other considerations. The wider the net, the stricter the rules. Basically just refer the politics or the sports sections are written, as those are the oldest subjects in journalism. Every other subject, usually is the new kid on the block.
Hell, my favorite magazine in the comic world, back in the day wrote beautiful articles for comic readers. Though I doubt I'd use those writing skills in more serious magazines. It just wouldn't get past the editor.
Игги Друге (46642) on 6/29/2015 11:54 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] [1] It refers to traditional journalism, where the main subject is the article, not a game. You do know that journalism did not come from game magazines? :p[/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--]
But this is a game site, so naturally, when I say that journalistic style is a model for users here, I mean games journalism.
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--][2] I don't doubt you're a journalist. Though the world of journalism is wide. From trash tabloids, to the New York Times. To a hobbyist magazine, to the science section. Each of which use different standards, depending how prestigious the company is based on the net of the target audience and/or other considerations. The wider the net, the stricter the rules. Basically just refer the politics or the sports sections are written, as those are the oldest subjects in journalism. Every other subject, usually is the new kid on the block.[/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--]
Journalism is much older than sports, actually. The two oldest genres are probably politics and crime, followed by economics and culture. Sports and cultural journalism are both genres where a style that goes beyond strict he-said-she-said reporting is preferred.
And I still don't see why "the player" would make an analysis more professional than "you".
Indra was here (20738) on 6/30/2015 6:53 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] [1] But this is a game site, so naturally, when I say that journalistic style is a model for users here, I mean games journalism.
[2] And I still don't see why "the player" would make an analysis more professional than "you". [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]Because it's used for informal written situations. [1] Argh. It was an analogy for neutral term used in magazines and newspapers: the reader. The equivalent in a gaming site would logically be: the player.
[2] It has nothing to do with analysis and everything to do with official language vs. informal language. As a database, it's usually better to use academic writing styles, as in encyclopedias or any source that aims to convey information in an objective manner.
So the question you're actually asking me is, 'what does official language have to do with professionalism?' I really don't know how to answer that one. You'll have to figure it out by yourself.
CalaisianMindthief (8171) on 6/30/2015 3:53 PM · Permalink · Report
You must hold an office to be official.
Indra was here (20738) on 6/30/2015 5:23 PM · Permalink · Report
Try formal language instead then.
Игги Друге (46642) on 7/1/2015 10:21 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] [1] Argh. It was an analogy for neutral term used in magazines and newspapers: the reader. The equivalent in a gaming site would logically be: the player.[/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--]
Where do you see the term "the reader" in a newspaper article? In an article about people who read? In that case, it's not quite the same as describing a game, where the player actually partakes in the gameplay.
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] [2] It has nothing to do with analysis and everything to do with official language vs. informal language. As a database, it's usually better to use academic writing styles, as in encyclopedias or any source that aims to convey information in an objective manner.[/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--]
There is nothing inherently unobjective about a general third-person pronoun.
Pseudo_Intellectual (67532) on 7/2/2015 4:23 AM · Permalink · Report
Where do you see the term "the reader" in a newspaper article? In an article about people who read?
I would only expect to see it used in eg. a textbook example (no, actually used in a textbook) as in "The proof is left as an exercise to the reader."
Daniel Saner (3515) on 7/2/2015 9:52 AM · Permalink · Report
In newspapers I wouldn't expect to see it in the main editorial content, but it's used when it's about the publication itself. Although I don't think I've ever seen "the reader" in that context, it's usually "our readers".
Indra was here (20738) on 7/2/2015 5:50 PM · edited · Permalink · Report
It's usually used in books, often hand in hand with the term the author and yes, when describing the publication itself (i.e. the book or in our case, the game), usually in the introduction section or editor's notes. Not so often in newspapers, the reader is used...well, except in the NY Times book review section, where it seems to be the norm. Reader's Digest uses our readers for example. Though in almost every case, you is rarely used except in publications where informal English is the norm e.g. blog journalism.
Not entirely sure why we're discussing journalism writing styles to be even considered for writing in a database. That logic makes no sense to me. For the articles, no problem. For a database, I'd use the standards used by serious encyclopedias.
Игги Друге (46642) on 7/3/2015 12:41 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--]For a database, I'd use the standards used by serious encyclopedias. [/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--] An encyclopedia dealing with video games doesn't strike this reader as very serious.
Indra was here (20738) on 7/3/2015 5:36 AM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] [Q2 --start Indra is stressed wrote--]For a database, I'd use the standards used by serious encyclopedias. [/Q2 --end Indra is stressed wrote--] An encyclopedia dealing with video games doesn't strike this reader as very serious. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--] See? Told you there's something wrong with your logic. If you consider encyclopedia Britannica for example is less serious than a gaming magazine, there's no argument in the world that could change that mindset.
Just check how they write everything there. Including game titles. That's how you write properly.
Игги Друге (46642) on 7/6/2015 7:41 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Indra is stressed wrote--] [Q2 --start Игги Друге wrote--] [Q3 --start Indra is stressed wrote--]For a database, I'd use the standards used by serious encyclopedias. [/Q3 --end Indra is stressed wrote--] An encyclopedia dealing with video games doesn't strike this reader as very serious. [/Q2 --end Игги Друге wrote--] See? Told you there's something wrong with your logic. If you consider encyclopedia Britannica for example is less serious than a gaming magazine, there's no argument in the world that could change that mindset.[/Q --end Indra is stressed wrote--] Now, this entire thread is already making me tired, but just because you ask -- yes, I think that covering computer games not only makes Encyclopaedia Britannica less serious, but also that its coverage of the subject matter is bound to be less serious than a serious computer gaming magazine.
Indra was here (20738) on 7/6/2015 7:57 PM · Permalink · Report
[Q --start Игги Друге wrote--] Now, this entire thread is already making me tired, but just because you ask -- yes, I think that covering computer games not only makes Encyclopaedia Britannica less serious, but also that its coverage of the subject matter is bound to be less serious than a serious computer gaming magazine. [/Q --end Игги Друге wrote--]Not talking about serious content. Talking about serious writing style.