Forums > MobyGames > A letter to the founders

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Sciere (930799) on 6/26/2010 9:12 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

This post was originally part of another thread, but was bound to get lost in a number of other discussions. It bundles a large number of gripes, nuisances and recommendations from the MG community as a whole and it has also been sent to the founders. Since the problems have been going on for so long without actions, their response (or lack of it) will for me determine whether it's worth spending any more time on this project or if it has been buried for a long time already.

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I would have preferred to do this through mail, but because the questions seem to get dodged with the same arguments from the past, just to maintain a status quo, I'll paste the recommendations I wrote in the mail to the founders and let the community weigh in. The founders/owners do no contribute any more, they do not approve items, they're not present in the forums and hardly anything changes on the site over time. So where does all that hard work behind the scenes lead to then? If a lot gets done, then there is a lot of inefficiency or a terrible form of communication, which made many people sign off already.

  1. The project needs a leader. Someone with the authority and power to make drastic changes when needed, with open communication to the users about the fundamental elements and policies of the site. This goes along with regular presence in the forums. There is no one now to defend old policies that have been set before many approvers and administrators joined the site. We abide by them, but there is no one to explain why. There is a complete lack of communication from anyone at the top and that is the source of most of the problems. There are rules, but nobody's talking or showing any interest. None of the founders would be able to do a proper game submission these days that is according to the policies, there is no connection with the user base any more.

  2. MobyGames should publish a social contract similar to Discogs (http://www.discogs.com/help/social-contract.html) with the promise not to sell user data or make people pay to access the site, and a vow to make all the content available freely for someone else to continue the project in the case that the site under current leadership comes to a halt. MobyGames needs copyright to protect its content, but the exclusive ownership of everything submitted is not fair to the group of contributors that build the site. In this regard the MobyGames Pro trademark (http://www.trademarkia.com/mobygames-pro-78749667.html) should be clarified openly.

  3. Who is the owner of MobyGames? Is it Berk & Hirt Consulting? Who are all these people and what is their stake in the project? The founders should come clean and be open about this. Who really holds the strings in this project?

  4. There should be more regular updates to improve usability of the site, and the contribution and approval process. People like the fast and minimal-looking infrastructure and do not demand a Giant Bomb-like redesign, just the updates to improve the site's usability. Many areas such as credits, most submission forms and the approval process are tiresome and outdated. People have even been making custom browser plug-ins to make certain processes clearer and less tedious. Most of the site's workings is very much outdated.

  5. Brian does not seem have enough time to work on the project regularly. Nobody blames him, he has done an incredible amount of work in the past, but it has been made this way that he is the only one who can work on the backend. Why should it be this way, why can't the community weigh in? I'm sure there are other programmers who would love to help out if they had the chance. Why can't the test server be opened up for additions introduced by knowledgeable contributors? Can't a part of the revenue generated by advertising be used to outsource work to another programmer if no other solution is possible? Why not take the risk to make the site open source for a number of people so they can work on a deployment at home, submit code to the test server and then have Brian approve it before it goes into production? Aren't we all working towards the same goal?

  6. A redesign of the homepage is in order to make the MobyGames project clear. Most people do not realize we do not sell games but are an encyclopedia. The goals and the contribution process should be clarified on the homepage with a much more modern look and different items. People would also like more tools to search the database (more operators to combine genres, specs, etc.). In the past a css redesign has been suggested (along with the need to make the site fixed width), but nothing has come of that. Again, communication is completely absent. Many other small changes are needed, such as the reorganization of related links, a way to source information contributed to the site, revisions of trivia items, and more.

  7. All text on the site in contribution and approval screens should be editable by administrators. Some pages are hilariously outdated with recommendations to use Internet Explorer 5.0 or higher or Netscape 6.0 as a "modern" browser. That makes the project look ridiculous. Just put that in the hands of the community and we will get it updated. We just don't have the chance to do it now. Almost anything should be made editable so Brian doesn't have to be bothered by it.

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game nostalgia (5602) on 6/26/2010 8:35 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

Thanks you Sciere for your honesty and bravery, and for showing true leadership.

I support your point of view completely.

Sadly some went into details, and others kept their mouth shut. Fortunately, at least some took a stand. Amongst them members who invested at lot of time in MG (top 50 ranking), and they have my utmost respect for that. Thank you as well.

And it was just another symptom of the applied sickening and immoral policy, that the "New Leader" of MobyGames (Pro), Corn Popper, didn't care to answer to your honourable manifesto. A manifesto that states the ideals the original founders seem to have lost, and the New Leader seems to abhor. And it is even more shocking, this total indifference, if one considers what you have done for MG (over 131.000 points).

For what it is worth (as a small contributor): I won't add any more submissions to my WIP list. A free community (enterprise) YES, a dictatorship NO.

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Sciere (930799) on 6/26/2010 9:41 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

My point of view is the summary of what all contributors have been saying in another thread, so they're to thank, but of course I support it too. I've received an extensive reply in the meantime and there is an acknowledgement of the problems and a willingness to bring some changes to the site. I'll make an update later, but I just want to let to know already that your voice has been heard and some answers have been provided. Of course you can be sceptical until something actually happens, but I don't have the impression there is a stubbornness to deal with it. Corn Popper, too, only has the best intentions with the site, so backing off right would give the wrong signal if we want the improvements to come along. If it all boils down to appeasement then the conclusion is clear of course.

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j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (96676) on 6/26/2010 11:38 PM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Sciere wrote--]Corn Popper, too, only has the best intentions with the site, so backing off right would give the wrong signal if we want the improvements to come along. If it all boils down to appeasement then the conclusion is clear of course. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--] Right. If people leave and stop contributing, that's what will kill the site for good. If there's no community left, then why bother making core improvements? I'm skeptical about where everything is going (you know what they say about good intentions...) but until things become clearer, I'm going to continue contributing just as I always have. I respect the site's mission, and I respect so many of the people here, and I don't want something that can and should be taken care of be the death knell just because people have lost faith.

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Evil Ryu (66053) on 6/27/2010 4:20 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start 雷堂承太朗 -djsw- wrote--]but until things become clearer, I'm going to continue contributing just as I always have. I respect the site's mission, and I respect so many of the people here, and I don't want something that can and should be taken care of be the death knell just because people have lost faith.[/Q --end 雷堂承太朗 -djsw- wrote--]I agree with you, pal: that's the spirit! =D

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BurningStickMan (17916) on 6/27/2010 6:18 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Sciere wrote--]I've received an extensive reply in the meantime and there is an acknowledgement of the problems and a willingness to bring some changes to the site. I'll make an update later, but I just want to let to know already that your voice has been heard and some answers have been provided. [/Q --end Sciere wrote--]

Looking forward to reading this update. In particular, I'm interested in seeing:

1) More communication from the founders or whoever's decided to be "in charge"

2) Any chance of any updates such as the ones featured here? Or just any updates at all?

2b) Could we pleeeeeease address some of the crazier user-interface troubles with the site? Like needing to have a separate entry for the same game if it has any differences (instead of the simple ability to have a unique description per platform)? Or some better way of handling DLC and associating it with its parent game, instead of just treating it like a new game entry?

3) What about posting some of these developer emails and praise Rob/Moby gets? I'm sure it seems conceited at first, but you wouldn't be posting them to brag, you'd be sharing them with the community they're presumably thanking.

Thanks for pushing the issue Sciere

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game nostalgia (5602) on 6/27/2010 10:56 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

@雷堂承太朗 -djsw-

"Right. If people leave and stop contributing, that's what will kill the site for good. If there's no community left, then why bother making core improvements?"

That's strange way of reasoning, isn't it, turning things around in this context? Moreover Sciere said "their response (or lack of it) will for me determine whether it's worth spending any more time on this project or if it has been buried for a long time already" (I guess you understand that Sciere has to intermediate in the process).

Sadly most keep silent or just keep going on if nothing has happened. The only way to achieve serious change is when people make it very obvious they don't want to take part in a project that seems to have lost/betrayed its original ideals (again, "MobyGames Pro" - ever discussed here by the owners? - and the way the site is run). That's why some have stated they will suspend their contributions or approval work, or will reconsider their position. Change isn’t brought about by words only. In that respect I am a skeptical as you say you are.

@BurningStickMan

Guess you are too eager. It is perhaps better to stick to the issues Sciere put forward and to take a stand to the letter Sciere wrote. Otherwise it happens again what he mentioned ("This post was originally part of another thread, but was bound to get lost in a number of other discussions.")

@Sciere:

”I've received an extensive reply in the meantime and there is an acknowledgment of the problems and a willingness to bring some changes to the site.”

That's good news. Let's hope it won’t be “some changes,” but "fundamental changes," in particular with regard to Moby’s original goals and the way the site is run. From what I have read in the other thread there is/was no willingness to make serious changes at all. So I am especially interested in the reaction to the first two points that were mentioned in your letter (about leadership and staying a free database).

By the way, it would be nice to see that this subject (Sciere's letter), about the essence of the whole project, was made a sticky subject.

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j.raido 【雷堂嬢太朗】 (96676) on 6/27/2010 7:12 PM · edited · Permalink · Report

[Q --start game nostalgia wrote--]...again, "MobyGames Pro" - ever discussed here by the owners? - and the way the site is run... [/Q --end game nostalgia wrote--] This was actually explained by Brian in the other thread, but it seems to have gotten lost.

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Maw (832) on 7/7/2010 9:05 AM · edited · Permalink · Report

Did anyone see this post on Trixter's blog? It's from December 13, 2009. (Emphasis added)

[quote]So. The time has arrived to shore up and buttress the hobbies. Here’s the Trixter 5-year pledge, to me as much as to you, in order of project start date:

Finish up MindCandy 3. Four hours of home theater showcase material on tasty Blu-ray (DVD too). It’s 80% done and should be ready by March or April. Complete The Oldskool PC Benchmark, a project I’ve been tossing around for a while. I’m unhappy that no PC emulator is cycle-exact for any model, not even known fixed targets like the 5150/5160, so this benchmark should help emulator authors get that taken care of. It will maintain a database of systems that have been tested, so that users and authors of emulators can target a specific model to run programs in. As each system I own is benchmarked, it will be donated back into the collector community, save for a handful of machines that I need for further development work (see below). Gutting and rewriting MONOTONE. Adding features people actually need (like volume and frequency envelopes, or an interface that doesn’t suck ass) as well as a few only I need, like flexible hardware routing. Remember, kids: You’re never going to wow the pants off of people unless you can drive seven(*) completely different soundcard technologies all at the same time. Bootable diskette PCjr demo, using the PCjr’s enhanced graphics and sound. Hopefully presented at a euro party. You best step aside, son. Build the Soundcard Museum, another project I’ve been tossing around for quite a while. (Now you see why MONOTONE enhancements came before this.) This will take up many months of free time, but I promise it will be worth it for the soundcard otaku. …and that’s it. I have nothing else planned. If they’ll have me, I’ll return to working at MobyGames, with maybe another MindCandy project in the works, if the project doesn’t run out of money.[/quote]

...

Huh.

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Pseudo_Intellectual (66423) on 7/7/2010 6:29 PM · Permalink · Report

That's a five year pledge, and we're only 6 months in to it, so it wouldn't surprise me if everything else before it on the list comes first... then in November 2014 he can pop his head in here 8)

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MZ per X (3017) on 7/8/2010 7:54 AM · Permalink · Report

[Q --start Sciere wrote--]Since the problems have been going on for so long without actions, their response (or lack of it) will for me determine whether it's worth spending any more time on this project or if it has been buried for a long time already.[/Q --end Sciere wrote--]

Thank you very much, Sciere. I always wondered whether you - being the one who obviously spends the most time here and has the deepest insight - had any doubts or not.

I just hope that this time something substantial happens - positive or negative - and some new platforms or a new beta feature won't suffice on the positive side of things. :-|

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Maw (832) on 7/8/2010 10:37 AM · Permalink · Report

It just blows my mind that Trixter would need to ask for permission before returning to Mobygames. I assumed he was just on extended hiatus. I didn't know he was officially gone from the project.

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BurningStickMan (17916) on 7/8/2010 11:54 PM · Permalink · Report

Would also like to hear Sciere's thoughts, or what came of the discussion alluded to earlier.

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Sciere (930799) on 7/9/2010 12:44 AM · Permalink · Report

There's been some communication, but some things weren't discussed before Corn Popper left for training, and Brian wants to talk those over when he returns. Not everything has been answered so far, especially the important ones, so I'm holding on to post a full summary. Hopefully before the end of the month.

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BurningStickMan (17916) on 7/9/2010 2:32 AM · Permalink · Report

Ok, no problem. Thanks!